There’s a guild that runs a 25 man ICC semi-pug every Wednesday on my server. One of our guild’s regular raiders is a member of that guild as well, and we’ve come to look at it as sort of a “friends of friends” event.
They’re a nice bunch, and they generally run a good event. My boyfriend, particularly, loves to run with them.
They have a loot rule that drives me bonkers. “You win it, you wear it.” Meaning if you pick up an item in a roll, you must equip it on the spot and wear it for the remainder of the raid. This is to prevent people from rolling on items they don’t need just to pad their bank accounts.
I understand the concern, I do. But there’s no way I’m taking my carefully gemmed and enchanted gear off and replacing it with something that’s not raid ready just to prove I’m not a ninja. Nope, not going to happen.
I guess, the general understanding is that you’ll carry a few of your optimal gems around with you just in case you should happen to win something, so you can equip it right away. I guess that’s a reasonable suggestion. I frequently have a gem or two in my bags since I am a JC and all. But I tend to put a little more thought into my gemming than that. If I have no idea what is going to drop, how do I know in advance which gems I should bring for it? What if I find I need a Dragon’s Eye? What if I win more than one piece? What if changing a piece means I need to buff up a stat I normally don’t gem for? I really don’t want to socket an epic gem that I know I’m just going to replace in two hours. Maybe some people like to waste gold that way, but I am not one of them. Running with low quality gems or empty sockets is equally unappealing.
And that doesn’t even begin to touch enchants. Do I carry a full set of enchanting scrolls with me at all times? Do I carry a couple stacks of mats and just hope I’m lucky enough to have an enchanter in the group who knows the recipe I want? Or do I, worst of all, run with the piece unenchanted until the raid is over? There just isn’t a good option. All of those things could be fixed if I just wore my perfectly good, serviceable, raid ready piece that I already have and save the upgrade for later, when I can guarantee it’s itemized as well as possible.
What about sidegrades? I wouldn’t take it from someone for whom it was a definite upgrade, but if nobody else was rolling, I’d nab a sidegrade here and there. For instance, I recently picked up some mail healing boots with much +haste as a possible alternative to my plate healing boots with much +crit. I’d use them in different situations, but I’d have use for them both and neither would replace the other.
And what about those pieces that you will wear, but that you can’t make work until you get something else first. For example, there are a few pieces that Rhii would love to have, but she would need other upgrades first to make sure she didn’t drop below the hit cap when she made the switch. It’s still an upgrade, definitely. It’s still something that would become part of her primary set, definitely. Is it something I’m comfortable equipping right now? Not unless somebody tosses me some +hit gems (which I’d almost certainly not be carrying in advance, they’re too situational to waste money on when you don’t know if you need them or not).
99% of the time, when I get an upgrade it’s actually a downgrade until it’s properly gemmed and enchanted. And maybe I’m unusual in the fact that I don’t like to be in any state less than the best possible during a raid. Even a PuG raid. I really don’t want to downgrade my gear just to prove to someone in a PuG (friends of friends or not) that I’m not a ninja.
So for the time being, I’m opting to either not run with that particular raid, or if I do run with them to go for badges and raid experience only and not roll on the loots. People have long said “if you don’t like the loot rules don’t roll”. I guess I’d prefer that than running ungemmed and unenchanted or alternately carrying half the guild bank with me whenever I go, just in case an upgrade drops.
Am I being silly? I don’t know. I think it’s a stupid rule though.
{ 31 comments… read them below or add one }
I think it's a stupid rule, too. At the end of one of our alt runs last weekend, someone made a remark about a hunter alt's gemming. I inspected him – he'd been equipping "upgrades" as we went, the end result being that he had eight empty sockets, at least six pieces of ungemmed gear, and no meta gem or gem in his helmet. I can appreciate that the gear was "better" than what he'd had before in terms of ilevel, but the end result was poor DPS and a mishmash of unprepared gear that didn't do him any credit… as we were staring down the Lich King.
You have to use common sense with these things, and saying "You will wear it" doesn't seem very sensible to me.
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While this is sort of an extreme case, that's exactly what I mean. If a piece of gear is a straight upgrade for me, unmodified, I will equip it on the spot. For example, if Marrowgar dropped his shiny healer shield in 25, I would put that thing on without a moment's hesitation. Because my current piece is the Scourgelord's Baton… unenchantable, no slots, lower ilvl, and itemized for DPS complete with hit. Even without the +int chant, a 264 caster shield is an undeniable improvement.
On the other hand, say a pair of bracers dropped (no idea if they do or who drops pally bracers) I would have to look close and see if my stats were better or worse with them. If they're worse, why would I gimp myself? (hint: I wouldn't.)
True, I was hyperbolizing quite a bit! I've equipped things on the spot – the first MH weapon upgrade Vid got from ICC was a no-brainer, even unenchanted it was a 251 versus her 232 and the haste alone made it worth it. For BoEs, the rule absolutely makes sense. For BoPs, well, at some point you have to trust that the people in the run wouldn't roll on things that they won't use, just for kicks.
(Pally bracers from 10 man Gunship, the Bracers of Pale Illumination.
)
HAHAHA, you're a walking Atlas Loot. Those I already have though.
It was just a made up example.
I CAN'T HELP MYSELF, it's a problem. Seriously… Oh well, at least I don't take up too much system memory.
I agree, I think it's a silly rule too. Sometimes a piece of gear will be better than what you've got on, even without gems and enchants. But by the time you're truly well-geared, most of the new pieces you can find are NOT that big an upgrade, and may even be a downgrade before gemming and enchanting.
The spirit of the rule makes a certain amount of sense, especially for groups that often bring puggies, but I certainly wouldn't be comfortable enforcing that if I were leading the raid.
Having seen a number of folks roll need n BOEs that made their way to the AH shortly thereafter (often even under the roll winner's main's name) I don't think it's a stupid rule. Unfortunately, there are many unscrupulous folks out there. I've mostly raided places that required that, ever since vanilla's MC BOE bracers. I don't think one should have to wear the item all night, mind you, but think the equipping is a good faith gesture.
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A BOE I would 100% equip, just so they could see that I had bound it to me. However, I would then take it back off until I have a chance to get it all set up right.
However, with a BOP, the only ninja-y thing I could do with it is vendor it for 13g or something, which is just not worth fussing over, is it really?
Definitely agree with this, in all our alt/PuG runs we insist that you equip the gear that it becomes soulbound – then you can swap back to your proper raiding gear because we wouldn't expect anyone to run with kit that wasn't properly gemmed and enchanted.
I can understand expecting someone to equip boes after winning to avoid the risk that they’ll be found on the AH immediately following the raid. But bops? That’s silly… Just because they equip them and run the rest of the raid with them doesn’t mean they won’t just vendor them afterwards anyway.
Now I suppose they’re right… If you don’t like the loot rules then leave or don’t roll. I was in a toc25 once where I’m assuming the raid lead hadn’t heard of a /roll add-on and was making peole roll for an item… By group. Yes. 5 sets of rolls per item. When many raid members expressed how utterly time consuming it was, the raid leads friends would start getting snotty and were not so polite. Seriously, rolls for beasts took nearly 15 minutes… I dropped group. The raid lead whispered me asking why I dropped so I explained why and he was ok with it, little upset he lost his top dps (by an overwhelming landslide… x_x). But sometimes you gotta wonder, when do you consider that enough is enough? How ridiculous can you go before you think to yourself, “hmm, maybe I should change how I do this”.
I haven't seen too many complaints over this particular rule. Granted, I haven't run with the group very much. Ironically, after posting this tonight, I wound up subbing in my mage to their raid at Festergut. Nothing dropped for me, so I was spared the moral dilemma, and she got experience she badly needed. That's win win, I suppose.
Gotta be Honest i don't understand why the rule is there?
what's the Point, i mean all you can do with a BoP is vendor it anyway, and you can do that having run a raid with it or not. so its not really going to stop anyone. If people were taking items others needed, then move onto terms of whats being a ninja or not, in which case they should be removed from the guild. But lets say its an item no-one else needs? then the proper code imo is to DE and add to the guild Bank. Our guild runs a few simple rules you might be interested in: –
What you win in raids you DO NOT equip unless you can fully gem/enchant it properally on the spot, so as not to gimp the raid as a whole. (i carried the blade ward enchant for the tanking mace from marrowgar for this very reason)
Now If a Boe item drops we allow people to roll, but they must equip it, then remove it again. Anyone found to place anything on the ah from our raids gets removed from the guild (this includes primordials, and such like that) as we work together for the kill and no single profit.
Just figured you might be interested, tbh its a very stupid rule imo, but id be going the other way about it. eg: you know your a good player, and you know what you can do, if they want to hurt there raid for stupid reasons is it worth you loosing upgrades over? Myself id just sod it, and have 1 peice of gear thats fucked for a raid in order to make my character improve in the long run.
Or i had 1 more idea? – perhaps abit evil, but then its a stupid rule.
Equip the gear for your whole raid, but switch out to your good stuff to fight just before a pull, and back again after the kill. would anyone really notice?
Well it's not really a guild run, it's about a half-guild pug. But the guild people who are there are alts, so shards are getting rolled on and passed out in the raid. Also when you're half alts/half pugs you can't really remove people from the guild, because chances are the alts aren't offending and the pugs aren't in guild. Kicking from the raid works though.
I thought if I was really desperate to roll on something I just would, and if I won it I'd put it on. Then I'd send an "oops" whisper to the raid leader that said "I just noticed that this isn't going to work until I get some gems in it, could I switch back to my old piece just this once?"
I think they'd probably not make a fuss if I did that.
As long as it wasn't every week.
Stupid rule? Yes. Would I mind? No. It's their raid. If they are willingly gimping their chances to drop bosses… ok, whatever. If anyone tried to blame me for sub-par DPS, I'd bitch as long as it took against the dumb rule.
Also, I think Phase's idea is very good. Just equip the gemmed old item before a fight and unequip it afterwards. No one will have time to inspect you while they're running away from the fire.
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I guess I just worry too much about how well I feel I'm doing. I'm not comfortable playing at a disadvantage.
I *understand* the rule – I guess it's an effort to stop people auctioning BoE items or selling BoP items to other players in the group or something … but it doesn't alter the fact the rule is a bit dumb. As you say, each new piece I get requires a gemming shuffle and I'd much rather keep the balanced gear I'm wearing, as it's unlikely an ungemmed, unenchanted piece will be a such a significant upgrade from what I'm wearing.
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I think you hit it on the head right there, Tam. I couldn't for the life of me think why it mattered if you equipped a BOP or not… and now I am sure it's because they don't want you covertly selling it to the lower rollers. If they can see it there on your toon, they can be relatively sure you haven't sold it.
Although I suppose you could agree to sell it and just do the actual trade when the raid was over.
Blah, still a dumb rule.
I carry at least 10 of each epic gem, and one of our enchanters carries a metric ton of dust, crystals, shards, and whatnot, so we have a 'gem and enchant break' scheduled after each wing. If we have a non-guildie I charge 125g flat fee for any gem I cut, I'm not sure what Tay charges. Guildies have to deposit something equivalent in the guild vault. At that point if someone isn't wearing whatever it was that they won, Questions Will Be Asked.
That would be an awesome system for a guild run. I doubt I could afford to drop the 5k g that it would cost me to get the initial stockpile of gems though.
Our only rule about equipping is that if you roll on a BOE and win you must equip it immediately, and that's true for our guild just as much as for pugs. If nobody wants it it goes into our Guild bank for alts (or mains if people are playing alts!) to pick up.
Anything more than that is really getting silly IMO, especially among a group of friends, or at least a regular raid group.
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For BOEs I agree I think it's the absolute only system that makes sense. Those things are just worth too much to hand out to the highest roller on a whim. I also think taking it off again and putting your prepared armor back on makes a lot of sense.
It's the BOP aspect that I'm objecting to really.
Oh, of course you don't have to keep it on. As you pointed out, you're most likely gimping yourself even if it is an upgrade. But at least with BoEs there's a reason to make you even put it on.
And heck, we only even started the rule for BOEs after we had to stop inviting one of our semi-pugs because he was rolling on BoEs as upgrades and then AH'ing them (this was awhile back – we haven't needed our guild friend semi-pugs on anything resembling a regular basis in probably 5 or 6 months).
Requiring you to do something like that for BoP's is just dumb. It's just not worth the money no matter how you slice it.
My recent post I AM RENEWED!
If its BoE, I see the point, you can't sell it on the AH for 10k gold later on… If that was going to happen, I would think the money would go to the guild bank of the guild that was leading the raid.
If its BoP, that is just pointless, because you can still trade items UNTIL they are gemmed, enchanted, or the two hour timer runs out. If they are requiring you to equip BoP items to keep people honest (no rolling on stuff for your pal) then they are missing a few details.
You never really stated if it was one or the other or both.
I thought I was clear in the original post, but I guess not because you're not the only one who's been confused. It's any loot… any drop. BOP, BOE, BOOGIE… If it drops and you win it, you wear it.
So yeah, I agree with your assessment totally.
I don’t understand the problem – if this is to stop you needing on BOE things to sell, then why not just equip it to bind it to you and then put whatever you were wearing before back on?
Oh, I’m sorry Rhii – when I posted, my browser showed no comments; if I’d been able to see everyone elses I wouldn’t have posted >< My apologies.
Haha, no worries. It happens to me sometimes too. I like intense debate a lot, but it is wonky sometimes with loading and eating comments.
It sounds like a reasonable rule taken to a stupid extreme.
Hevra and Koiev above both pointed out a simple solution that doesn't gimp you for the rest of the raid.
I can see how most aspects of that rule are frustrating, however consider this:
Item drops.
Person A is "going to" wear the item after they get x or y other pieces of gear.
Person B wants to wear it right now because it's an upgrade for them regardless in every way.
Would that really seem fair? I mean, if it's over offspecs, I can understand that. But I can tell you I've been in the position where I was pining for a spectacular upgrade only to have someone else win it over me and keep it in their bank for a month because that "other item" never dropped.
An above poster is right though. It's a "generally" good rule taken to an extreme. In my pugs if it's BoE we simply ask them to "equip it real fast" so the raid leader can look, they say OK, and the player can then equip their old gear until after the raid.
Overall though, I pretty much agree. Wtf? Did these raid leaders ever consider that to be efficient, almost every player who gets an upgrade would have to port to a city, use the AH, switch on and off of alts, and then send themselves the items? It'd be a waste of time but then again so is wearing unenchanted/ungemmed gear >.>
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Yeah, Pop, I see your point regarding the thing you're going to wear "at some point" in the nebulous future when wonder trinket finally drops. I try really hard to pass on things like that if there's someone that needs it right now. But if the thing you're waiting to get is a cardinal ruby, that kind of changes things, I think!
Yeah, the semi-pug makes things a little dicey. There definitely are people that all know each other, trust each other not to be morons, and are certified as non-ninjas… but in the spirit of fairness and transparency, we don't differentiate the rules between pugs/regulars. If it's a rule for the pugger we don't know, it's a rule for the guy that's there every week. Otherwise, it's very easy to get accused of being ninjas ourselves, even if *we* know we're following the loot rules, it has to be apparent to the people who aren't insiders. Y'know?