I’m going to briefly tread on potentially controversial ground to ask you a question lovely readers. I think we’re adult enough to tread on the ground of IRL religion briefly and respectfully.
One of my raiders suggested cancelling our Sunday run next week because of the Easter Holiday. This raider said that they had family and church obligations and that they didn’t want to feel as though the guild forced them to choose between their IRL committments and their in game commitments (I’ve been preaching the idea of committment to the raid team to them, and apparently I’ve gotten through to at least a few!).
I hadn’t even considered that the holiday might be a problem for some people. I’ve personally observed Easter all my life, but my tradition does so late Saturday night and/or early Sunday morning, so I hadn’t considered the possibility that people might have commitments in the evening. Also, my family doesn’t have any sort of elaborate family celebration at Easter the way we do for Thanksgiving or on birthdays, so we wouldn’t have anything going on in the evening which was important family-wise. But I probably should have stopped to consider that some raiders might be from religious traditions or families that do have important events on Easter Sunday evening. We didn’t schedule a raid on Christmas day or New Years Eve because we knew people would be busy with other commitments (we did schedule one on St. Patrick’s Day… it was VERY poorly attended), but those are not such strictly religious holidays as Easter… New Years is basically secular, Christmas has a religious origin but is celebrated by the majority in the US, regardless of beliefs.
Frankly, I don’t want to ask them to miss out on our raid that night, I don’t want any of my raiders to feel like they are excluded from a guild activity because of their religious affiliation. I feel like it’s different somehow than someone skipping a raid to celebrate their anniversary or their mom’s birthday, because we could have been sensitive and planned around it. And then, I also know vaguely that Easter coincides with the Jewish holiday of Passover… I don’t know if we have any practicing Jewish raiders, but if there are, I don’t want to exclude them from raids either because of their religious commitment. And I’m suspecting that if there’s one raider in the guild who’s in that situation, there’s probably more than one raider in the guild who is, but who either didn’t think to say anything, or who didn’t dare to ask. Religious questions/revelations are generally met with a lot of hostility in-game. Far more than if you’d asked your professor or basketball coach…
I suppose there are some holidays which can’t be planned around, things like Islam’s Ramadan which lasts for a month… we can’t cancel raiding for a month, sorry. Or maybe relatively unrecognized religious holidays or things that are observed only by a very few — I probably wouldn’t even know about these holidays to work around them! But I think there’s some kind of basic courtesy involved in not planning a group activity during a time that is a major religious observance for a large number of people in the US. So I feel like my raider was right to ask, and I feel like I ought to cancel or reschedule to accommodate that request.
I am afraid some of the less open-minded among the guild won’t see it that way however.
What do you guys think? Have I made the right decision? What would your guild do, or what would you do if you led my guild?
Rades March 29, 2010 at 5:23 pm
Kind of a tough one Rhii! Being dedicated to a raiding guild has its limits, and I would say being faithful to one's faith/religion/beliefs definitely would come first. However, that's a tough call to make without knowing just how many people are affected by this particular holiday. If it were Christmas or something widely celebrated and like 95% of the raid would be unavailable, that's a no-brainer. But if it's only a handful of people who are affected…well, it's probably not fair to the rest of the raid in that case. Quite the dilemma.
Maybe the best thing to do is ask around and open it to consensus – if everyone can make a different night including the affected people, then perfect! And if not, and the religious raiders have to miss the raid (and you still have enough to run, obviously), well at least they know you listened to their concerns and tried to accommodate them. Really, that's all one can ask for.
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Bruski March 29, 2010 at 10:29 pm
As a practicing Catholic who attends Mass several times a week, I have sometimes had to miss raids because I hold my faith to be more important than wow.
However, I would not feel my guild was being unfair to me if they raided without me on those nights, and I will try to find other people to lead raids that I usually lead on those nights.
I would say schedule a raid, but make it clear that if people have higher obligations, that's understood, and you'll do a ten man or cancel the raid if the raiders make it clear by their signups that they don't want to raid that night.
This has the disadvantage of the 24 people online possibly being upset at the religious people. Perhaps make a forum topic on it?
I see no problems with cancelling a raid on Easter Sunday, considering raids have been cancelled for the super bowl and other things. Enough raiders watch the super bowl to make a difference to the raid, and enough raiders celebrate easter to make a difference too.
If only one person is affected, they can sit like night, like I plan to on Good Friday, which is observed by far fewer people than Easter.
(our Gm's comment on the thread re: super bowl sunday raiding "Can you raid Sunday 20100207? Fuck no. I'd rather stab myself in the face than try to raid while half the idiot raiders are watching TV again. ")
Rhii March 30, 2010 at 4:03 am
You have a good point, comparing it to the Super Bowl… I hadn't thought of Non-Holiday special occasions… and you're right, if there was a raid scheduled for Super Bowl Sunday (we hadn't started raiding Sundays yet then, our schedule changed recently due to server lag) I'm pretty sure we'd have had to have cancelled it.
I'd love to do a 10 man instead… but considering we normally run 10 mans anyway!
I don't think that would work out.
Ophelie March 29, 2010 at 11:08 pm
I guess it depends on how often you raid.
I don't see why it would be a big deal to miss a raid because of other obligations, be they religious or not, or why someone would feel left out by missing a raid. But then, I can see how people would view their raiding time different if they typically only raid once a week versus if they raided 3 or more times a week. It's also easier to rescheduled when you have more open evenings in the week.
I usually see raids canceled on Christmas and New Years because attendance is expected to be low and/or the raid organizers have other things to do that night. I canceled my 10 man raid for Valentine's Day for those reasons (myself and most of the raiders had date nights). I'm planning to go ahead with Easter, but if too many of my raiders are busy that day, I'll cancel. I don't really see the link between raid scheduling and religion per say, it's all about whether there's someone available a specific night to organize/lead the raid and enough raiders to get a group together.
Rhii March 30, 2010 at 3:59 am
We raid ICC on Tues/Thurs and TOC on Sunday… for the raider in question, TOC is the only raid they can attend, since they're too new to the raiding scene to be ready for ICC yet. We actually have a fairly large group of newbies who get their only raiding with the guild on Sundays. So it's slightly more important than missing one raid out of three.
Aeven March 30, 2010 at 12:24 am
I think, as Ophelie said, that the reason really doesn't matter. In this case, it's dual religious holidays (Easter/Passover). In other cases, it might be a national holiday (Independence Day, Memorial Day), a major local event (hey, half the guild lives in Dallas, and the big game is tonight!), or even just one of those things (last week before school starts, too many people hauling kids back to college or themselves heading back to school).
The end result is that there's some event that will prevent a portion of your players from raiding. You've already established an informal policy dealing with these cases (Christmas, New Years Eve), so you even have something to fall back on. Acknowledge the situation, ask your raiders how many have other plans, and then (as Angelya suggested), adjust your raising plans accordingly: either scale back to a 10-man, or cancel the raid. Or schedule something else interesting to those who will be present (running old-world raids for achievements or rare drops, for example).
The actual reason that you won't have players online on a specific day really isn't the issue… so don't make it the issue, and don't let others make it the issue, either
Rhii March 30, 2010 at 3:55 am
Hrm, personally I do think there is something particularly significant about religious holidays… I'd be far more likely to try to squeeze in a raid after my pub crawl on St. Paddy's day, for instance, than after my Ash Wednesday service.
Maybe I'm just odd that way?
Kaethir March 30, 2010 at 1:14 am
I pretty much agree with Bruski. Schedule the raid anyway, make sure it's understood that it IS understood if you have family commitments, you won't be penalized/whatever for missing this particular night…
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Rhii March 30, 2010 at 3:54 am
Personally, if a lot of people aren't going to show, I'd rather not spend the evening sitting around Dalaran trying to PuG someone…. I'd rather just call it and be done with it.
Jeff March 30, 2010 at 2:36 am
It's a regularly scheduled raid. If you were to take fear of giving offense out of the equation, what would you do? You'd schedule the raid and see how the attendance goes, right? Naturally people should give important real life events priority over a game. However, it seems to me that your raider is trying to guilt your entire guild out of raiding without them, so they can have their cake and eat it too. And it's working.
Rhii March 30, 2010 at 3:54 am
I am more concerned that there are other people affected who won't say anything because religion and wow typically don't mix. I don't think AT ALL that the raider is trying to guilt trip the rest of the guild, I think the raider is trying to call to my attention that we've scheduled a raid during a time when at least some of us have prior IRL commitments, and ask us whether we think that's wise/fair/appropriate.
To make a comparison, last year I roomed with a medical student. The school she attended scheduled a "White Coat Ceremony" which was a mandatory initiation for all first and second years on Good Friday. There was a huge uproar among the students because they had a large population of both Catholic and Jewish students at that school, and they were not offering waivers for religious observance. The event had to be rescheduled.
This isn't on that scale, but it's the same principle. We KNOW there's a conflict, why not be considerate and schedule around it?
Grimmtooth March 29, 2010 at 10:15 pm
A lot of families DO take advantage of the Easter / Spring holiday for family get-togethers, whether one celebrates it that way or not. I know my family in the past (when I was a kid and we had more surviving family) spend pretty much the whole day together.
So, no, I wouldn't schedule a raid on that day.
As for the less open-minded … well, I don't even see the need to make a choice.
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Rhii March 30, 2010 at 4:04 am
I've talked it over with my Co-GM and I think we are going to call it on account of Easter. Our biggest concern, honestly, is that people will reflexively sign up because they sign up every Sunday, and not realize they won't be there. We don't want to sit around all night waiting for people who aren't coming.
Rades March 29, 2010 at 10:23 pm
Kind of a tough one Rhii! Being dedicated to a raiding guild has its limits, and I would say being faithful to one's faith/religion/beliefs definitely would come first. However, that's a tough call to make without knowing just how many people are affected by this particular holiday. If it were Christmas or something widely celebrated and like 95% of the raid would be unavailable, that's a no-brainer. But if it's only a handful of people who are affected…well, it's probably not fair to the rest of the raid in that case. Quite the dilemma.
Maybe the best thing to do is ask around and open it to consensus – if everyone can make a different night including the affected people, then perfect! And if not, and the religious raiders have to miss the raid (and you still have enough to run, obviously), well at least they know you listened to their concerns and tried to accommodate them. Really, that's all one can ask for.
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Rhii March 30, 2010 at 4:05 am
It really has been interesting to think about. I am guessing there are more people who have family commitments on Easter than the one who spoke up….
So I think we are going to call it.
Linda Pelfrey March 30, 2010 at 3:57 am
I way to finesse it is to say you do not raid any day many open-seven-days-a-week department stores are closed: Christmas, Thanksgiving, Easter, etc. If they do not think it is worth being open, your raid chances may not be great. (One addition might be Mother's day; the poker tables were always sparse then.
Rhii March 30, 2010 at 4:09 am
Hey that is an AWESOME way to say it, and one I think that my raiders would understand, even the non-religious ones. Thanks for the idea Linda!
Angelya March 29, 2010 at 11:19 pm
I'm not sure I see why you're worried about this. If someone had a religious commitment outside the game, it would be pretty insensitive to say "no, you must raid!". Same goes for the raiders who might be upset by a raid being canceled because of it.
You could find out how many people are available on Sunday. If there's enough, raid. If not, cancel or run a 10-man. It's not like religious holidays happen every week
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Rhii March 30, 2010 at 3:58 am
Well we're definitely not saying YOU MUST RAID.
But we don't want to waste the guild's time scheduling the raid at a time when it's doomed to failure, and we also don't want anyone to feel as though there's a barrier between them and guild events… I know it's only one day, but it seems like being insensitive just isn't the way to go.
Jen March 30, 2010 at 7:14 am
The way I see it, it's really easy: schedule the raid. Post on the forums/guild message/etc. that you *know* people might have obligations. If you have 10/25 raiders signed up, raid. If you don't, cancel it with a message saying 'people have obligations and we can't raid tonight'. I don't see why a person would be upset because their own schedule interferes with a previously announced raid…
Personally, I'd be bummed out if our guild canceled the Easter raid – *I* am not busy that evening, so they would be robbing *me* of a chance to a raid. I understand that some people can only raid Sundays, but regardless of what you decide, they WILL miss this raid. Why make some *other* people miss it too?
The only reason I see for canceling raids on holidays is if the RL can't make it or if it's a huge holiday – we did cancel our Xmas and New Year's raids because we knew no one would be around (though I could've raided on Xmas, there were only 5-6people online).
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Rhii March 31, 2010 at 5:01 am
I guess the point is that if enough people are unavailable we waste EVERYBODY's time… and still nobody gets to raid.
Maybe I should have been clearer in my original post… my guild has an awful attendance problem. Even on a day when nothing much is going on, we often have trouble filling up the spots.
isheepthings March 30, 2010 at 8:38 pm
Yeah /agree with most everyone else here…no matter the reason…if there is a foreseeable event that can cause the raid to not happen, simply call it out to everyone and state we'll still "try". If you can't get enough for the raid and don't want to fill with a pug spot, simply reschedule and go do something else as a guild….PvP or perhaps run Zul Aman.
If the issue is the player doesn't want to miss the raid and feels it shouldn't continue happen without him/her then they need to get their priorities straight and realize that the guild involves more then just them. Other people who don't have an obligation that day shouldn't be held back because one player feels they are more important then having the raid continue without them. Doesn't matter the reason, Holiday, Work, or even School.
Rhii March 31, 2010 at 4:59 am
I don't think that's the reason, honestly. I don't think this particular raider was saying "if I can't have my fun I don't want anyone to have fun without me." Some of my raiders might pitch that kind of a fit, but this one is not the type. I think what they were saying was, "look, there's a scheduling conflict, it could be perceived as kind of insensitive if this goes forward, because I don't think I'm the only one who has obligations on this night."
With the attendance problem that we're currently having on our raid nights, I'm not sure I want to spend the evening hoping that enough people will come to make it worthwhile… I think if we've got a fair amount of people who can't come, and our usual no shows then I'll wind up sitting in Dal alone trying to pug 8 for a 10 man.
Jen March 31, 2010 at 8:58 am
Reading Vidyala's reply… I think we're just thinking of different ways of assembling raids. For my guild, we use the website, and everyone has to choose "yes, I can come" or "no, I can't" (with comments if necessary). For a holiday raid, I would put up a signup with a note saying "We know it's Easter, but if enough people are available we'll raid". If by Easter morning there's only 6 signups – cancel the raid. If there's 10 – have the raid.
I don't know what system you use, so that might not work out for you… If your concern is people signing up and forgetting it's Easter, I'd just whisper them individually and check.
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Vidyala March 31, 2010 at 2:12 am
We went through this too as we went to do approvals tonight and saw that a good number of people had set themselves "Tentative" or "Unavailable" for Sunday. We decided to just call it. Sunday raids are often susceptible to this – there was no question about us calling the Superbowl raid too, even though I couldn't personally care less about football, it mattered to enough people that we just did it. I'd rather miss a raid day now and again than make people feel they have to choose between other Very Important Things and raiding (Still Very Important!)
Rhii March 31, 2010 at 5:00 am
This!
It isn't that my raider is whining about being left out, it's that they're gently reminding us that people's religious holidays are Very Important Things and that we should at least consider it, no matter what we decide to do.
Thank you for phrasing it so nicely, Vid.
Vidyala March 31, 2010 at 7:54 pm
Absolutely! While we care about raiding very much, and all of our members do too, we make sure that people know that RL > WoW, with caveats – don't bail on a raid without warning, try not to bail with short notice, and we'll respect RL commitments without complaint. I like that you took the time to write a post about it, though. It's important to be conscious of why we do what we do.
Tahliana March 31, 2010 at 9:47 am
You mention in your post that Christmas has a religious origin, but in fact it was an ancient pagan festival:
In ancient Babylon, the feast of the Son of Isis (Goddess of Nature) was celebrated on December 25. Raucous partying, gluttonous eating and drinking, and gift-giving were traditions of this feast.
Rhii March 31, 2010 at 5:12 pm
Fair enough.
History lessons are always appreciated.
If I'm not mistaken, most pagan celebrations were also religious observations, weren't they? I imagine the Son of Isis was a religious figure as well, though… so technically, still religious in origin, even though I admittedly was thinking of the Christian meaning for the date.
In the same vein, I believe Easter has a similar pagan origin and was adopted by Christianity after the fact.
Gnomeaggedon March 31, 2010 at 12:14 pm
Family, religious, work etc come before raiding (just as family & religious come before work).
If the person was suggesting it because they and others that didn't want to speak up felt they were being guilted into raiding, then I think the best way of approaching it is as has been suggested, post saying that non penalty will be applied for people following their faith… serious would anyone apply such a penalty? especially if football or other non-religious observances are acceptable.
to suggest that it should be called in general, at 1st glance might seem a bit extreme… but to a person of faith, calling a raid for the superbowl would seem somewhat shallow in comparison.
It annoys me a bit that in Australia, a majority christian country, certain days are sacred… and as someone mentioned above, shopping centres will observe those and no others. I used to run a medical bookshop, the majority of my customers were non-christian. by the rules we had to close on days that had no relevance to our customers, yet were expected to be open on more appropriate holidays.
Some large shopping chains recently suggested that Oz's most holy of non-holy days (ANZAC day… like Veterans day) shouldn't be a holiday… personally I think that sucks.. but it would be my choice not to participate.
I'd suggest making it clear that people can follow their faith/heart without repercussion, but that you would like to get a raid up, so anyone that is interested sign up… if the raid can't fly then propose a fun night…. 8/24 people hitting BGs while on vent is an absolute blast
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Rhii March 31, 2010 at 5:17 pm
For anyone that's heard the outright mockery of all faiths that goes on regularly on my server, I can imagine it would be very intimidating for anyone to speak up and say that it applies to them. Although we try to keep a rein on it, we do have some fairly outspoken irreligious people in the guild, who occasionally tread on others' feelings. They feel strongly about it, so they speak up (although I suspect they wouldn't be so tolerant if their opposition was as outspoken). We try to keep things respectful as much as possible, but you never know how someone is going to react to controversial subjects until you try them. It was probably intimidating for them to even talk to me about it… I would be hesitant in their position.
I did appreciate the guildie for calling it to my attention. It's certainly given me something to think about.
We Fly Spitfires March 31, 2010 at 12:06 pm
Easter's a religious holiday!?!
Pretty much no one in the UK cares about it any more 
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Rhii March 31, 2010 at 5:12 pm
Aww! More holidays are always better! I have no class Friday because of Good Friday.
MOAR HOLIDAY!
Landon Phillips September 14, 2010 at 8:57 pm
it doesn’t matter what religion you have, just do good and avoid evil*’*