When I first started playing WoW, I was cautious. I’d been part of a large community of gamers online before (though in a forum, not an MMORPG), and I’d had some rather difficult interactions with men when they found out that I was in fact, a woman. For the first few months, I deliberately did not tell anyone my gender unless they specifically asked, and I begged out of my leveling guild’s friendly voice chat because even though I had a mic, I didn’t want them to hear my feminine voice.
When I rolled Rhii, I was playing in a guild that was run by two of my real-life friends, a co-worker and his wife, and they were fantastic people. In that guild, I was able to open up more, form some real friendships, including an ability to feel comfortable as a woman playing WoW. Since that time, I’ve never made a particular effort to hide my gender, and especially since I’ve been dating Nael, it’s been more easy and natural just to present ourselves as an IRL couple, man and woman, and nobody’s ever given me any problem about it, nor have I ever felt as though I was being treated differently than male players in any significant way. The only possible thing I could point to as “unequal treatment” is that when I correct someone who refers to me as “he/bro/dude”, I occasionally get a whiny response about hating girl gamers who have to take every possible opportunity to remind you that they’re a girl. I’ve always felt vaguely uncomfortable with that, because I’m not being Snottydin, I just want to be addressed with the proper pronouns. They’d take exception to being called “she/lady/girlfriend” wouldn’t they? But aside from those few, relatively minor, occasions, I’ve always felt treated respectfully in WoW. When Nael and I stepped up to lead our guild, I did it confidently, with this experience behind me.
For the most part, I was right, but an incident last week makes me wonder if the courtesy and respect I’ve been treated with in guild is just an overflow of respect for Naelian, and not for me at all. Here’s what happened. Nael wasn’t on, he had family obligations, and I had one of my alts online and was farming herbs, when a few of the more boisterous members of the guild started discussing porn. We run a pretty loose organization, we don’t object to most swearing, and we don’t censor guild chat more than strictly necessary, but they were giving graphic descriptions of extremely idosyncratic and violent pornography! Completely outside the fact that explicit sexual material is forbidden by WoW’s Terms of Use, some of our members are still in high school and subject to parental monitoring, and quite honestly, that sort of discussion isn’t appropriate anywhere where someone might be forced to listen to it against their will. My alt piped up in /g and warned them that the subject was inappropriate for guild chat, and was completely ignored. Well, I thought, they might not recognize that this alt is actually their Co-Leader. So I logged out and brought Myrhani on, and reminded them again in a louder and sterner manner, that while we may not have specifically said we don’t allow porn in guild chat (I would have thought it went without saying), we did have a general rule about not being assholes, and that they were violating it. It’s what happened next that made me see red. They replied, “Yes, Mommy” and reluctantly changed the subject.
Mommy? Oh yes, I’m a squeamish girl standing over you watching to make sure you never do anything naughty. That’s me. GRR! I bristle thinking about it. I let it go at the time, since I was so relieved to hear the porn talk stopped.
A few minutes later, the same members I’d warned about porn started harassing one of our best, most reliable, veterans about being gay. To my knowledge, the player in question isn’t gay, but it doesn’t matter one whit to me whether he is or not. It’s completely irrelevant to his performance as a player, a guildie, and part of the backbone of our emerging raid structure. He’s our guild quartermaster, in charge of our guild bank, and so he has access to officer chat, despite not having most officer privileges, and he told me in /o how uncomfortable the haranguing was making him.
So, again, I logged over to Myrhani and reminded them in my Guild-Leader-Voice that it was time to lay off Roog, the teasing was inappropriate at best and it had definitely gone too far. “Ooh be careful,” one smirked at the other, “Mommy doesn’t think you’re being nice”. After a long pause for breath and self control, I reminded them that I was the Co-GM, and that the officers were in agreement that we weren’t going to become a guild of complete tools. I let them know I was prepared to enforce it and that the rest of the officers would back me up. I reminded them that it wasn’t any special female sensitivity that made explicit porn and bullying offensive. Everyone should be offended by these things. Strangely, the only other officer on made uncomfortable typed noises, as though he knew he should side with me, but really agreed with them. As if he thought my reaction was fueled by gender, not by common decency. Well, the sarcastic snotty comments toward my interference continued, and I wound up kicking one of the offenders from the guild.
When Naelian came online later, he delivered a blistering rebuke to the whole guild, and they all formed a line to reverently kiss his ass. Even if they secretly believed, and I suspect that they did, that he was only acting to pacify his sensitive girlfriend. A few days later, the rest of the malcontents left the guild and I’m not sorry to see them go.
I’m still disturbed though, my confidence is shaken by the realization that the guild doesn’t see me as an equal co-leader with Naelian. He and I have acted very much as a team, what he says goes with me, and vice versa, and between us the direction and formation of the guild has been very evenly divided. He’s GM because there can only be one, but at the founding of the guild we were equal co-leaders and have always acted on it. Now I feel like the guild might just be humoring me by letting me play leader while they look to Nael as their actual leader, and I’m unhappy.
I’ve been unhappy with the guild for a while now, for various reasons. I don’t know that Naelian and I have the resources to correct the problems, and I’m not getting what I wanted out of this guild. I’m finally skilled and geared enough for serious raiding, and instead I have an administrative headaches and a flock of unruly testosterone fueled cats to herd.
And they don’t even respect me.
{ 32 comments… read them below or add one }
Do not in any way feel that you're being unreasonable in your expectations. I'm SO over immature jerks trying to make me feel bad about enforcing guild rules regarding sexual harassment – for that is what you've been subjected to, I think.
We have a similar thing going on in our guild; we officially welcome all genders and orientation and expect all guildies to present an environment comfortable to all. But, as the kiddies do these days, the 'gay' jokes start to flow and eventually someone has to talk them down. Usually a straightforward warning will suffice. But recently there's been a lot of pushback. Our GM (who happens to be female) has pushed back with the kickhammer. There are many reasons I adore her, and there is one of them.
We may only now be taking down Thorim, but I'm happy that we're keeping our principles intact, mostly. The gay bashers may have gone on to leet raiding guilds, but they can still kiss my hairy dwarven butt.
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Do not in any way feel that you're being unreasonable in your expectations. I'm SO over immature jerks trying to make me feel bad about enforcing guild rules regarding sexual harassment – for that is what you've been subjected to, I think.
We have a similar thing going on in our guild; we officially welcome all genders and orientation and expect all guildies to present an environment comfortable to all. But, as the kiddies do these days, the 'gay' jokes start to flow and eventually someone has to talk them down. Usually a straightforward warning will suffice. But recently there's been a lot of pushback. Our GM (who happens to be female) has pushed back with the kickhammer. There are many reasons I adore her, and there is one of them.
We may only now be taking down Thorim, but I'm happy that we're keeping our principles intact, mostly. The gay bashers may have gone on to leet raiding guilds, but they can still kiss my hairy dwarven butt.
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Thanks Grimm. I'm pretty tired of the constant discussion of the same old subjects too, but for the most part we let it go, because quite honestly I don't think it matters that much in the long run. When things go too far, though, I've got to step in.
Thanks for reminding me how important the principles are.
I'd tell them to kiss my blood elf butt… but…. I think it might get out of hand! *laughing*
Hehe, you're probably right at that
We just had a reminder of one of the benefits for sticking to it … we're more than 1/2 way to the 8-man Naxx achievement
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In the times I've talked to you about your present guild, I'm not entirely surprised this is how the guild is acting. Their behavior is in no way a product of your leadership but simply the apathy and or mindset of your guild.
You've mentioned pulling teeth trying to gather 10 people to show up to the raid, and those that do come want a free ride without reading/knowing any boss strats. You've mentioned players not showing up because of being grounded (not to stereotype but usually that means "young, unreliable, immature players") You said yourself that you are skilled/geared enough for serious raiding an yet you still end up failing on Naxx bosses. Its time to cut bait and run.
That guild has nothing for you….all work and no reward. I can see the appeal of small guilds but not being a small "bad" guild. That guild sounds better for leveling alts or running 5 mans but not raiding. I say that because you need to be a close knit group of skilled players all focusing on the same goal to be successful at raiding. If you have a bunch of immature internet thugs that have no respect for your rank you need to change something. Guilds always need healers and you can easily find a guild that is farming ICC 10 mans and giving you a chance at new loot each week. /geeeeeeeeeeeeequit
I'm feeling like that's the way to go more and more. However, after posting this rant, I do have to point out that we are finally making some progress, as can be seen by the fact that we did finally manage to down Naxx10. I hate to quit when things are actually looking up in some ways. The guild is starting to learn that gear does not equal experience, and that even dressed in T9 they are probably gonna still wipe a few times in new content. Now that they're starting to accept that, raids are going a little better. We didn't get Ony last week, but I'm almost certain we'll get her this week.
I know I've got not business trying to muck around with raid leading, and I definitely take a backseat there, but I'm beginning to think that the ideal situation for me might be one where I just showed up to raid and otherwise was left more or less to my own devices. But now that we've taken the steps we did to try to save/improve the guild we were in, it feels cheap and lame to cut and run now, since things would fall apart totally without us. The biggest problem is that we've got about five quality people who'd like to stay together, and that's not enough for our own guild and too many to try to get in somewhere else.
I may start poking around though, just to see what's out there. Any suggestions on how to go about it?
Good riddance to bad news. Such behavior is immature and uncalled for in a guild of "friends". I've had similar moments as an officer in a casual guild. The boys were getting too out-of-hand and after reminding them multiple times that their behavior was not cool, I had to break out the "/kick" hammer and deal out some guild officer justice. Of course, they went running to the guildmaster, QQ'ing about it, The kicker was, even after hearing my side of the story, he let one of them back in! When that ass started to wisper to me "Haha, I got back in, bitch!" I /gquit.
See, I play WoW for stress relief and to escape childish behavior (I spend all day with two kids under the age of 5)…not to deal with other people's kid/childish behavior. And when the GM didn't back me, I felt jilted.
Feel blessed that your co-GM had your back on this. It could have gone so wrong the other way.
ARGH! If that happened, I'd be the first one gone, and my co-GM would hear about it! I'm so sorry it went that way for you.
Usually between the two of us, I'm the one arguing that everyone should get second chances. I think perhaps I should rethink that argument a little.
what about recruiting new blood? I'm sure there is others out there that could fill the 5 slots for those who aren't pulling their weight. Just advertise yourselves as a guild that is friendly to new level 80's that are serious successful raiding. The more people you have to work with, the easier it will be to enforce an iron fist to those who don't tow the line.
We've recruited some real good people, sadly, we tend to lose them quick. I think it's the catch 22 of small guilds. We keep trying though. Recruited a really cool bear tank yesterday when he pugged along on our KT kill. Which was cool, because we started the evening 9/10 guildies, and finished the run as 10/10 guildies.
Its a shame when situations like these creep up and you end up having to share your "stress revealing time" with idiots who feel internet anonymity gives them the right to ruin your play time.
WoW should always be fun. Its sad how often I have to remind myself of that.
I have honestly seen this behavior a lot in my guild. The guys just love to make stupid and offensive comments about each other being gay or them getting 1000 girls a night. You know what the funny part is? All of my experiences in RL tell me that it's only guys whose sex life is absolutely ZERO that act like that, trying to cover up and stuff. I simply tune them out, but i'm not an officer.
Most importantly, though, is that you'll always come across this type of situations, when people dont respect you because of your gender or beliefs or green eyes or whatever. That's when you have to make a decision. Do you leave, or do you stay and teach them respect? And by the way… this is how i see it: you have a bunch of quality players who want to raid, and you have a bunch of sex-starved internet-addicted kids who dont have a notion about respect. Get some new guildies, enforce a strict "no dirt talk" policy or similar, and MAKE that guild be what you want it to be.
Good luck and cheers for your attitude, it's peaceful and i like it.
Yeah, Naelian and I have decided we're scheduling an officer meeting for next week to figure it out. Be there, or be demoted. Hopefully they show.
And if they can't for legit reasons, hopefully they let us know in advance and agree to abide by what we decide.
Ouch, it's one thing to have a relaxed atmosphere in a guild, quite another to talk about totally inappropriate topics and then whine like a kid when you're called out on it!
I get called 'stalin' when I call guildies out on misbehaving – but at least they aren't focusing on my being a female guild leader, just a dictator *grins*. Fortunately they know I don't take any crap and their jibes are given in good humour
We also have strict rules about content of chat before 10pm, and a large proportion of female players and couples who keep each other in line!
Ooh, I like the idea of setting the time frame! That's one thing Nael and I have been talking about: how to clean up chat without seeming like we've suddenly grown a Hitler mustache. The guild is used to the rules being real relaxed, but we've absolutely got to tighten them now, things are getting ridiculous.
Possibly we could use a time frame like that to get them to accept it, guild chat can be rowdy late, but since people's mom's might be watching early, keep it clean until 10. I think they'd possibly go for that. Thanks a lot!
/agreed with earlier comments. You should not feel bad in any way, shape, or form. We have a similar standard with our guild chat and fortunately not had any trouble, but it only takes one bad apple sometimes. I am confident that your other guild members appreciate that you care and work to maintain the standards that are set for the guild.
In my last guild, we had one member who always always pushed the limit and danced around the line of what we considered appropriate – including making many innuendos and anything else he could do . . . without actually doing it. When he finally was removed from guild, I had quite a few guildies say thanks and comment on how much some of the talk bothered them, they just didn't want to speak up and cause any waves.
It's good to hear you are progressing and I wish you luck! Remember for ever douche you have IN the guild, there is a great person LOOKING for a group like the one you have. I hope the recruiting goes well!
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Thanks Eury. I hope that the majority of the guild are with me, and it only seems to me in my frustration that they aren't. I did notice one of our DK's commented that something that was said was "completely uncalled for" so I'm sure at least he's with me! And I think it's telling that very few people were online at the time that things got to this extreme. So hopefully it's not as bad as I felt it was when I was dwelling on it.
I know that grind well. Additionally, a guild that's been around as long as ours (the GM formed it in Year One) will see cycles. We've had three or four cycles of mass defections by more ambitious members, most which I've been an officer through, and its disheartening to say the least.
Recently we lucked out recruiting a new Palli tank from another server (we met through my blog, of all things!) and he brought friends, and they've been wonderful. So there's a lesson: don't be shy about using the blog to troll for new members! I've seen a number of good players with blogs looking for a new home.
That's the thing about being in a small personal guild … always on the knife's edge of being able to raid. But I wouldn't want to trade that for a big "pro" guild for any amount of gold.
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As a male who attempts to abide by the standards of common decency and who also has no knowledge whatsoever of your guild's internal style…
I actually doubt that their treatment of you had anything to do with you being a female. It *might* have had something to do with you not being the "offical" guild leader, but more than anything probably had to do with the fact that you "ruined their fun."
Blegh. Idiots.
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Hopefully. The "Mommy" comments just made me feel really awful. I'd rather they were just idiots, not misogynistic idiots, I suppose. Fortunately they're gone now
I've played games for a long time, and online games like WoW for a good number of years and have played alongside all kinds of people from both genders, with all kinds of sexual leanings (if you get to be friends with people over a length of time and you can have a mature conversation without making ignorant remarks you find out all sorts about different people) and tastes and hobbies, stoners, drunks and general lunatics like myself.
There are a LOT of decent and reasonable people out there who can at least tolerate one another if not actively enjoy playing with anyone at all unless they are complete [i]tools[/i]. You shouldn't give up hope because of the actions and insensitive words of a handful with poor manners and don't know when to stop with a joke.
We have a couple of female players in our guild and they have their share of good friends they know from real life and are relaxed, friendly and good players. Both of them have families and balance real life very well with WoW, one of them is the main paladin healer in the guild and her husband is in the guild too; they have three children and we love them both to bits because they're often very good natured on the chat and can have a laugh about being a blonde female healer (there is no doubt she's better at healing than just about everyone else in the guild aside from one holy priest and officer and can handle hardmodes) as an ongoing in joke and tolerate some of the more mature discussions we sometimes end up having, or even taking part in them. As for voice chat it's just nice to hear some friendly voices, you know? I'm a bit of a joker irl and I remain the same way in game, and treat everyone the same in both areas.
Shrug, I don't personally care if you're a three hundred and sixty four year old giraffe from Pluto as long as you're not a complete and utter penishat, you're okay at whatever game and role you play and you have a sense of humour.
I've had some more intimate relationships (yes, making the jump from online chatting to rl dating) that have gone a bit more than just online friends with some girls, I can't say I want to do it again but I have some advice to all the guys out there, young and old like. Respect. Your. Fellow. Players. Even. If. They. Are. Girls.
Also don't assume that everyone playing a MMO is horny as hell and wants sex 24/7 (guys are the exception to this though sometimes I guess).
On a side note our ex-guildie who was the original co-founder of the guildie didn't mind being called Sheep Mum at all, and our paladin healer is the alt guild 'Lamb mother' (Exploding Sheep / Lambs are the guild names), but then again although I try and avoid saying daft shite like that (unless I am drunk in which case I openly flirt with my pet wolf at times), it's always said with good feeling and friendliness, not the patronising and rudeness that was behind what was said to you no doubt.
Anyway, the best of luck to all of you and if you are a player and person who just wants to have a laugh and a good time with other like minded people no matter who they are, then o/o high five!
I wouldn't mind if they called me the guild mom or something like that, although I really don't think I fit that profile all that well other than being female — I'm mid-20s and don't have any kids and in general don't have that motherly a personality type. Affectionate nicknames are one thing, being jerky and using "Mommy" in a sarcastic way when it's more like saying "Big Brother" is what bothered me. But those people are gone, and hopefully things are looking up for us!
It's so sad – but sexism exists in WoW. A lot of the worst offenders are guys who don't even realize that they're doing it. It's just little things… but they do add up.
In my old guild, I would say something critical on the forums about a policy or procedure (not a personal attack) and just get SLAMMED by the officers for it. Your "tone" is bad, blah blah. And they would completely disregard my valid points and instead freak the hell out. But if a male person, husband included, said the same thing in the same cold analytical tone (or even in a hostile tone), the officers would actually listen to the points and not react emotionally to the "tone" with it was said.
I later quit that guild and joined a new one. When the GM quit, he chose my husband as successor, not me, even though I had done far more work for the guild. Of course, if 2 officers are roughly equal, the man is the natural choice. Husband did take the guild reins, and I let him do most of the talking since officery things are better received if they come from him. To a certain extent I have given up combating that sort of unconscious latent sexism because it takes far too much effort and it's almost impossible to actually get rid of.
I've taken actions as an officer, actions that any officer would have taken, that caused members to quit the guild because it was coming from me. I think some guys play the game to get away from their wives, and a rebuke coming from a female reminds them of the females they're trying to escape – even if the rebuke is not particularly characteristic of something their wife or mother would say. They assume that women "take things personally" and therefore view any sort of behavior correction as a personal attack – it is coming from a girl, girls are emotional thingys, it must be personal!
It's sad that there is not much you can do about latent unconscious sexism. That's something the guy player has to work out IRL and there's nothing you can really do to change it. If you point it out, they will not accept your point as valid but rather see you as using sexism as a cover up for your inability to do something that the other males can. Sexist males absolutely hate it being pointed out that they are sexist, and use it as an excuse to dismiss the female who is pointing it out as irrational and emotional.
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My alt, Lysah, is part of a guild who's GM is a toon shared between his girlfriend and himself. So when the GM is on, we're mostly unaware which of the two is actually on, unless we check vent. From what I've seen, we treat them as if they were one person – the GM. We haven't run into any problems like you've had to deal with, but I think it has largely to do with the make-up of the guild members. It was a good call to kick the troublemaker. Other than that, I can't say much since I haven't had any experience in that position.
All the best!
Mag
You're still on Naxx? Now, with the level of gear to be had in heroics? You can pug people in full 232 easily since the last patch, there's no way you should have to put up with idiots who can't handle Naxx fights. Never mind have to struggle to put together 10 such idiots for a raid.
Cut and run. Find a serious guild and work to be a part of it. You'll thank yourself when you're clearing ICC 10 bosses.
I like how you didn't respond to the issue in the post at all, just took this opportunity to mock me for not being in current tier raids.
Just so you're aware, I can't do every fight in Naxx flawlessly yet. I'm struggling with my guild, but bear in mind that we were founded less than two months ago, and quite honestly, I don't appreciate all beginners being lumped together as idiots. Where are people supposed to learn the skills to raid? In pugs full of 232 where you get kicked for making the least mistake? Gotta tell you, that's not a welcoming learning structure for me.
I'd rather learn in Naxx with a bunch of honest idiots than pug with elitists.
As a male gamer, I actually actively seek out guilds where the leadership is predominantly female. Why? Because, by and large, you see more cultural and social sensitivity if women are in leadership positions in a social community. In the little guild I was running a while ago we had a 40% ratio of women in our player base and I attribute it primarily to our guild charter that said that sexual harassment, sexual explicit conversations in guild chat and sexism, racism or homophobia of any kind had zero tolerance. Any activity of that nature would be investigated and then the offender would be gkicked.
Sounds harsh, I know… but let me tell you, that kind of strong arm meant that folks definitely abided by the rules and made sure to treat each other with respect. Those who didn't like that were gone soon enough.
I actually cover this very subject in this post: http://newbshop.blogspot.com/2009/07/councilor-tr…
adam
I'm not sure Suntiger meant it as an attack but it was a blanket statement about your group not being able to do what they should be able to with the current average gear of a player. Calling them idiots is a bit much though.
Judging by the conversations I've had with you, I would call your raiders EXTREMELY casual. With a mindset like that, don't expect to raid very successfully. You've said they lack the desire to do older raids due to no upgrades and that's understandable. But you guys should still be able to do stuff like Naxx. "You gotta walk before you can run" and all that jazz. If you guys are having trouble beating the safety dance boss, no amount of "new upgrades" are going to help you. Also, nobody seems to know the fights and boss strats. You can't show up to a raid and expect someone to carry you. Each raid member should know not only their job but the job of the other classes as well.
"I'm a mage so I just DPS right?"
"No, you dps, decurse, and when the boss yells "ABRACADABRA MFers!" You have got to run to the left side and Iceblock. If you die he gets a 2000% haste, crit, damage, buff for the next 20 mins and I'm not sure our Tank can last that long"
Should you be wiping? YES. Should you accept zero raid progress? NO. Point is, your entire raid group has to want to win as much as you do, and from what I heard, they don't. They're not idiots, they are just lazy IMO.
Whoops. I hadn't actually meant that reply to be a sub-comment to another comment… Derr. I failed on the blog comment thingy… Oop.
Yep – I ignored the female leadership issue because I don't really have much to say on it, but my intent was not to mock you – it was to intimate that you are a better player than the people you are running with and that you should probably move on from them.
Or, at least you are more serious about raiding/learning to raid than they are. And it's perfectly possible to learn to raid in Uld/TOC, if your gear level supports that; it doesn't have to be Naxx.
I’ve just started reading your blog today, but it’s like deja vu. You write about so much that I see.
I am an officer in my current guild. Last week the “gay” joking started up in guild chat.
I did get the problem resolved by chatting with the offending parties privately. What I said was not so important as the fact that I didn’t confront them in open guild chat. People respond defensively when confronted about their behavior in public.
Playing MMO games give us a laboratory in human relationships. We can test what works and what doesn’t. If we fail we can start anew. If we succeed we can take the experience into real life.
Kindest regards,
Mark