The other night, a guildie of mine accepted an invite to tank a PuG TOC25.
He was one of the first invitees to the PuG group, and was clear with the raid leader that his tank spec was his only spec, he did not have a dps spec or gear.
Somehow the group filled up with too many tanks and the raid leader asked him to switch to his dps spec, at which point my guildie explained (again) that he didn’t have a dps spec, that he’d signed up as tank, and that he specified when invited that he could only tank, as he had no second spec that was suitable (I believe he has a pvp tailored spec as his second spec).
/kick
Now three other guildies of ours were also in the PuG group. None of them protested or left the group, which made the tank in question very sad. He came to me and asked if it was too much to ask for a little loyalty from guildies in PuGs. The instance hadn’t started yet, so nobody would have been losing their weekly lockout by sticking up for him. He stated that he has, on other occasions, quit a PuG in protest over the unjustified kicking of another guildie. He felt upset that nobody else was willing to stand up for him.
My immediate reaction was that, yes, he was expecting too much. I didn’t expect other guildies to leave a PuG raid because one member of the guild got kicked. It wasn’t a PuG led by someone in the guild, or a close friend of a guildie, so what would protesting do? It would just mean that nobody from our guild would get to PuG that instance today.
Then I thought about it some more, and I realized I’d done something similar myself before. It was an Ony25 group put together by one of my guildies, who (on request) made one of the healers raid assist so that they could invite some more healers, and the new assist started kicking people. One of the people that got kicked was a guildie of ours… a somewhat, but not distressingly, undergeared DK. I had run Ony before, but only 10, not 25, so I was hesitant to stay in a PuG that had a ruthless kicker at the helm… someone who would kick with no explanation or prelude over a slight gear issue. So I dropped group, and when they whispered me to come back I told them that I’d changed my mind because they kicked my guildie unnecessarily. I think, looking back, that I was partly motivated by self preservation, partly by loyalty. But I don’t think I would expect the same from other people, would I?
And then I thought some more about it, and I realized that I wouldn’t think twice about dropping group in a 5 man if someone kicked my guildie. I don’t care what reason they had for kicking a guildie, unless they were massively misbehaving, that group would find themselves without a healer in a matter of heartbeats. They are my guildies. They are my people! You can’t kick my people and expect me to continue to heal you! I would be (and have been) outraged by someone kicking my guildie. Whether it was low dps, gear, brief afk, I don’t care. You don’t kick my guildie unless my guildie’s a ninja or something (and if they are they’re unlikely to remain my guildie much longer).
Anyway, so now I’m in a muddle. Was my tank friend right in being upset that his “disloyal” guildies didn’t back him up when he got kicked from that TOC25 PuG? Or is it too much to ask for your guildmates to leave or risk being kicked from a perfectly good raid just to back you up?
Tebla January 26, 2010 at 12:07 am
No, it's not too much to ask for them to drop group. Guildies should stick together. Gives the guild a bad name, in my opinion.
Rhii January 26, 2010 at 1:58 am
I'm starting to agree with you, the more I think about it.
Well, as a guild we're all new at raiding, and we're mostly new at guild etiquette too. Hopefully we'll all improve with practice.
@isheepthings January 26, 2010 at 5:51 am
Waaaaaaaaaaaay back in late 2004 maybe early 2005, I can recall gchat lighting up in my first guild with one of our members crying out the injustice of being steamrolled by someone 10+ levels above him in Hillsbrad Foothills. The guild master called out for everyone to immediately head there and show that you DO NOT attack our players without stirring up the whole hive. I wasn't crazy about giving up the questing I was doing on my new lvl 20 something. But still the call was made and I teleported to UC as mages do.
As expected I'm in flight path over silverpine when the player logged out. I look at the guild tab and notice nobody is even remotely close to hillsbrad. Asking in guild chat who was coming everyone pretty much answered with "it'll take me 20 mins to even get there". Nobody had mounts pre lvl 40 back then and I was the only mage on who could zip to UC. Now it was going to take me 20 mins to get back to what I was doing in the first place. Needless to say I had some words with my guild master when even he didn't bother to show after sounding the call to arms. His only response was to thank me for the effort. I left that guild about 6 months later because there was never any real team work. We probably only had about 4 people attuned for Molten Core and at best you might be able to pull in 2-3 players for a 5 man instance run. And that was only if it was in their best interest.
Its hard to get a guild to have enough guild pride to do anything it seems. If you are able to rally that up among your troops you have truly accomplished something great.
burnunit January 27, 2010 at 12:20 am
I am a firm believer in guild loyalty. And protecting guildies. However, that said. WoW as a game does not favor guild love. The guilds that have “guild love” are the ones who have been around a long time and progress. Real MMO’s like EverQuest, Ultima Online, and Dark Age of Camelot really promoted guild loyalty.
I was Guild Leader in EQ with a guild containing over 400 characters on 150+ unique accounts. And everyone of them was loyal and took pride in the guild tag. In WoW, youre lucky to find a 10 man guild with that kinda loyalty.
gnomeaggedon January 26, 2010 at 6:29 am
Since I am in a one man guild, I dare say the "guild" part of this is moot.
However, I am often with a long term group of mates.
If one of us got kicked, then the others would start talking in our private channel, asking why etc. It would then be up to the kicked player..
- If they are really pissed off, then we would walk out.
- If they tell us to continue we will
That said, I know my first response would be to drop group – unless the kicked spoke up fast
Rhii January 26, 2010 at 5:39 pm
That seems like a really good system. Maybe I’ll start to encourage this in my guild? I know that this particular tank was afraid to speak up because he didn’t know if it was okay to expect that of guildies, but I also know at least one of the DPS-ers who stayed in the group came to me afterwards and said he was tabbed out while the kicking was going on and didn’t understand why Mr. Tank was so upset. On retelling of the story, the DPS apologized to Mr. Tank and said he’d have stood up for him if he hadn’t been oblivious to what was going on.
I suppose communication never hurts.
@krizzlybear January 26, 2010 at 2:59 am
It depends on the guild. If it's a new guild, it's only natural for guildies to be in your wishy-washy situation, since they're not as familiar with each other as they should. But with time, the guild's members get somewhat closer to each other, and that obligation to loyalty is more of a simple natural reaction than some sort of obligation.
@isheepthings January 26, 2010 at 5:33 am
you make a good point. if you don't feel very "close" to your guild mates there is very small chance you'd do this. for instance in my current guild…seeing how i never get to go on the main raids and should I end up in a pug that looks successful, I'd stay no matter what.
If it was Rhii who was kicked…I'd leave. Perhaps if I was in a small-ish guild there would be more potential for that type of connection with other members.
Rhii January 26, 2010 at 5:34 pm
Thanks! I’d leave a group that kicked you too… for one thing, it would be a stunning display of stupidity on their part.
chunk January 26, 2010 at 1:28 pm
I recommend he stop being such a fag about it. Would you expect your buddies to stop gambling just because you didn’t bring any money? No! You encourage your friends to have fun and get some gear that would benefit the guild. Not be a little bitch and whine to your GM about how you fail for not having a dps set.
Sylthi March 3, 2010 at 11:10 pm
I don't think this guy "didn't bring any money." He was invited as a tank and he came as a tank. But let's take your little gambling analogy.
So you and your buddies go out gambling, and while you guys are scoping out the action, deciding whether to hit a blackjack table or maybe the slots, a floor manager comes up and kicks you (not your mates, just you) out of the casino for some vague and not very satisfying reason. Do you think it's cool if your buddies hang out and gamble at that casino for a few hours without you or do you expect them to walk out with you, bad mouthing the casino manager as you go?
Remember, in this analogy you've proposed, you're the one who's the little pussy if you just sit there and take it like a bitch.
Kaethir January 26, 2010 at 2:22 pm
@chunk: Stay classy.
@Rhii: I think it really depends on the nature of the guild, the run, and the players involved. If they are folks that get to go on guild raids all the time, then I would be more expectant of them to drop group for this, but if this might be their only chance at gear/badges/whatever this week… I’d be a little more understanding…
Rhii January 26, 2010 at 5:43 pm
Yeah, we’re not big-time raiders. The raids these guys go on are few and far between, which is what prompted my initial response that it was asking too much…
But Mr. Tank doesn’t PuG much either, and I know he’s looking for a specific upgrade he can only get in TOC25… our guild isn’t big enough for 25s so pugging is his only option. The fact that pugs are rare for him made it more frustrating I’m sure.
Ophelie January 26, 2010 at 4:05 pm
I’d be very uncomfortable staying in a group that kicked a guildie. Whether or not I’d expect them to return the favor would depend on whether we were queuing up to raid together as friends or if we ended up in the same group by accident. While I’d certainly appreciate guildies dropping group for me whenever, I wouldn’t expect it unless we had planned to stick together for the raid.
Rhii January 26, 2010 at 5:40 pm
I know that the Tank who got kicked and a Tree healer signed up together for this one… but they’re not close friends… Mr. Tree healer had only joined the guild last week. But they were there together.
SlikRX/Balthazario January 26, 2010 at 8:30 pm
My answer is “it’s complicated”…
I will often have extra loyalty for a new guy trying hard to fit in. Camraderie is a good thing, and I like to pay it forward.
For a good friend/etc, I would definitely leave if the person in question was hurt.
Then again, if I’m near the end, and the guildie in question is a close enough friend to be understanding of -me-, I might stay, rather than waste my time.
But, I know when I got kicked 2/3 the way through HToC 5man, I was a tad upset that Kattastrophe (my other half) stayed in.
Rhii January 27, 2010 at 1:57 am
I really like your point… that understanding SHOULD go both ways. In this situation, where the lockout isn’t even in place, I think sticking up for your guildie is the answer… but if they were on Anub, maybe it would be better for the tank to understand that they don’t mean to be unsupportive, they just don’t want to waste their lockout so close to the end. Friendship is give and take, and probably good guild relationships are too.
If my other half stayed in a group that kicked me, I’d be pretty upset myself. We’ve worked out the “you left me behind in WoW issue” by agreeing not to leave each other behind. Which, I think, includes not continuing raids the other is kicked from, just as much as it includes not going to ICC without each other the first time.
Shengo January 26, 2010 at 10:11 pm
I think he deserves to have his guildies stand up for him. I was in a 10 man run where the group didn’t know the strat for a boss, and simply ran in without even asking. My guildie politely explained how they were wrong, and they kicked him. I thought he may have rage quit, but he messaged me to tell me they kicked him. I, and a fellow guildie of ours, immediately called the raid leader out on it and dropped the group, at the expense of our raid lockout; considering that it was the weekly, it was at large cost to ourselves. But in anything, even WoW, friends are more important than badges.
Rhii January 27, 2010 at 1:55 am
Definitely, friends are more important.
Even than loot.
Foxfire January 26, 2010 at 10:39 pm
The point of a guild is to find a group of like minded people who will stick up for you. If they aren’t going to stick up for you or band together when needed, then why are you with them? It doesn’t make a lick of sense to me. If you don’t care about your fellow guildies then essentially you’re just a pug with it’s own channel with a pretty green colour.
Now if the tank in question had of said ‘Hey guys it’s cool, pugs are rare, get your loot and badges, I’ll be fine.’ Then sure no problemo with continuing the group. But when your guild member gets kicked for no good reason and you just keep on trucking? Well, why would that guild member bother to ever help you when you don’t stand by him or her? I know if the tank in question was myself I wouldn’t tank for the guildies that stayed in that group again. They didn’t support me so I wouldn’t support them.
Which is the point of a guild, having people you can rely on when you need them.
Rhii January 27, 2010 at 1:54 am
I think the tank just didn’t know whether or not it was appropriate to ask them to drop. I wasn’t sure either, when he first brought up the question… but the flood of public opinion is convincing me.
Sylthi March 3, 2010 at 11:19 pm
I don't think asking the others to drop is appropriate. It's no fun having to cajole people into doing the right thing. They should have stuck by him without being asked. I don't know, maybe I'm too sensitive about these things, but lately it seems my capacity to tolerate asshattery has been greatly diminished.
shelly January 26, 2010 at 11:19 pm
From the beginning it was stated that he was tank only. Likely he was the one of the ones who got others in his guild to join. the guildies should have dropped group unless they are one of those mega guilds that pretty much just raids. There has only been one giuld i have been in that wouldn’t drop group and that wasn’t a guild that was very helpful in a first place.
Rhii January 27, 2010 at 1:53 am
We’ve struggled a little bit developing a guild community. We came from a sort of disreputable leveling guild that imploded on itself, and my SO and I have worked very hard to turn it into a community and a respectable guild.
We’re making good progress… but we’re not there yet.
Melayna January 26, 2010 at 11:59 pm
The situation could be a little more complicated. If the tank was invited in the first couple of invites and subsequently got the other guildies into the guild run. Then as the tank i’d be a little annoyed that guildies I was helping out didn’t want to help me out either. Had it been my guild, we would of really really pushed our tank over some unknown tank. Mostly because we’d trust our tank because we tank with them, and secondly he’s one of us. I would of been asking “Why couldn’t one of the other tanks switch to dps?”, or questioning why the Raid leader could not keep track of who they where inviting in the first place so the problem didn’t occur.
If one of our guildies is kicked for no real or good reason, we will question it and if no reply or an inadequate one, we as a whole we will drop group immediately. Gear and badges is not worth our guilds integretity. If that guildie is being a dick then we won’t back that and drop.
That said I have had a situation where I couldn’t get a guildies Shaman invited into the a 25pug onxy once and he got quite peeved, because about 4 other guildies where in the run. But if i make the effort to try get them invited, I won’t drop group. Dropping group because they won’t take your friend is a bit to much for me. Sometimes you just have bad timing.
Rhii January 27, 2010 at 1:52 am
Oh it definitely can get complicated. And I understand that sometimes dual spec can get you a spot you might not otherwise get… but I’m not sure why one of the other tanks couldn’t have gone DPS instead. It isn’t like this tank was undergeared or anything… in fact that’s why he’s running TOC25 in the first place… it’s the only place other than ICC where there are upgrades left for him.
And yeah, I agree, it’s expecting too much if you’re mad that a pug just didn’t have space for you. I think it’s a different story if you’re kicked once you’re already invited.
twiceten January 27, 2010 at 12:14 am
So my question is… regarding guild loyalty and PUGs, should we feel at all bad when members of a recently carefully assembled PUG let the raid know in raid chat after downing the first boss that – “guild needs me” and then drop raid. I respect guild loyalty and helping out your friends, but i feel that some respect of the PUG should be warranted as well… or else there won’t be any more PUGs. At least no PUG capable of acomplishing anything. What do y’all think?
Rhii January 27, 2010 at 1:50 am
I don’t mind when people do that in 5 mans… in fact I kind of admire it. If I could get my own guildies to drop their heroic at raid time we’d be a few giant steps closer to starting raids on time… lol.
But when it’s a PuG raid, I think it’s kind of inconsiderate. Unless you’re suddenly and unexpectedly called to fill a vacancy in a guild raid you didn’t think you’d get an invite to, why would you pug a raid when you didn’t have time to finish? It’s just rude to the people you’re running with, who are real people too.
Vidyala January 27, 2010 at 12:22 am
I would’ve personally left at the injustice of it all and probably said something pointed to the RL. I don’t think he was expecting too much – but – it all depends on what the guild is like, how close he is to the people, etc. Especially if some of the other guildies didn’t exactly realize what was going on, like the one who said he would’ve left if he hadn’t been alt-tabbed out… perhaps the tank should have spoken up at the time, if not to say “Why’d you guys stay,” at least “That really upset me” or “I can’t believe they’d kick me like that after I said I could only tank, what a bunch of jerks.”
If he’d made it clear how ticked he was he may have gotten more reaction. Hopefully there won’t be a next time, but if there is everyone may keep in mind that what’s at stake is not just a couple of badges or possible loot upgrades! Alt-tabbing notwithstanding.
Rhii January 27, 2010 at 1:47 am
Yeah, we’re a pretty newly formed guild (formed in November) but we formed out of the ashes of our old guild which had kind of imploded for lack of leadership. So many of them knew each other well. In fact, I think the tank had actually been the one to recruit the shaman who was in the pug…. The tree healer was new to the guild though, so I understand his position a little better. And the mage didn’t know what was going on.
So you’re right, there’s a lot of variables. But I’m really understanding the tank’s position now.
Darlinak January 27, 2010 at 1:10 am
Just this week my GL and myself queued for a random heroic using LFG tool. Myself as warrior tank and him as Pally healer. Now I’m quite new to the tanking game, having been DPS for a looooong time, and I was unfamiliar with the instance and because of a silly mistake on my part we wiped. One of the DPS decided that the healer was to blame and asked for a kick, I ofc voted no, the pally stayed and so the DPS dropped group instead. Undeterred one of the other DPS pointed out my error and we 4 manned the remainder of the instance.
However if they had kicked him, they would have been short healer and tank, because I wouldn’t have thought twice about leaving.
P.S. thank you to the understanding DPS, we don’t all know every fight in the game off the top of our heads.
Rhii January 27, 2010 at 1:44 am
I totally agree, both with your comment, and with your sentiment about understanding dps. Sometimes tanks/heals forget a mechanic too
Phelps January 27, 2010 at 1:38 am
In the Fun Lovin Criminals, if you kick one of us, you kicked all of us. Given that our guild is healer and tank heavy, you probably ended killing your pug.
Gratz nub.
Rhii January 27, 2010 at 1:45 am
Haha. I like that philosophy.
Damarlen January 27, 2010 at 2:05 am
I was tanking Naxx 25, as the third tank, on a PUG. My guild was small, and we only had 6 or so of us online, and every single one of us was in the Naxx 25. We got to Heigan the Unclean quickly, and the MT decided to tank him on the “Retard Corner” instead of the usual “Safety Dance”. It was a fast and horrible wipe. So we got all buffed up again, came in again, and the MT went for “Retard Corner” again…..we wiped again. Came back in, re-buffed, and the Raid Leader said we would Dance this time. So the MT and the OT ran in and tried the Corner again…they died, and so did half the raid. I picked Heigan up and started Dancing with him. About 2 seconds after I had Heigan in postion to dance, 4 of my guildies quit the raid without saying a word…they had not released when I picked Heigan up, they could see that I had him and was dancing him, and they just left the raid. The dance took a while, due to very few dps left alive (by the time we finished, it was down to two healers and me). But while I was STILL DANCING HEIGAN, I had my guildies asking me to leave the raid cause they were organizing an OS10. I told them quick “Still tanking Heigan, still alive after you all left” and kept going. Right after Heigan died, I gquit, right then and there. I was ticked off….over half of my guild had SEEN me pick up Heigan and start dancing, and they left the raid without even saying a word to me in gchat or a whisper or anything…they bailed on me. And right after that fight the raid picked up a few more bodies, and decided they didn’t want me tanking because I wasn’t good enough. If my guildies had stayed, they could have stuck up for me. I was the only one of the tanks good enough to tank Heigan…I didn’t have the greatest gear, but it was fairly obvious I had at least some basic tanking skills….and it was only Naxx, and most of the raid was geared into ToGC, including the healers. It didn’t need a Leet tank to live through that one, the heals were big and everything died fast. But my guild bailed on me, and I ended up getting replaced as a tank, so I left the raid too. And then they were all whipsering me to come back to the guild. Why would I want to remain in a guild that wouldn’t support me? It would be similar in a PuG raid that booted me…if my guild won’t stick up for me, I won’t stick around for them. I have left raids that booted my guildies, I have left instances that trash-talked my guildies. Those guildies are almost all of the people I can count on to be there to help me when I need it, and I will help them when they need it. My new guildies have forgone raids to come help me run a Heroic in Outlands because I didn’t have the dps to down one of the bosses soloing it…..I fought him for a half hour, and we were BOTH still at full health and mana…I had to stand still and let him kill me to get out of the instance. So a guildie came over to Outlands and we pwned him. They have travelled all over Azeroth to help me, both on my main and my alts. And I do the same for them. So when someone is a jerk to any one of us, the rest of us stand up for that one. They are the only family we have in Azeroth.
Valerius January 27, 2010 at 1:52 am
My guild is very unique in that we’ve been together since early 2004. Our focus is being a social guild so things like this are pretty serious with us, and prior to the LFG system we rarely did any PUGs preferring to only run within our own group. To the point, Myself, my wife, and two other guildies were in a “For the Alliance” group and one of my less experienced guildies was being harassed by another PUG member. I don’t think it was really ever a question of what we’d do if the anwser wasn’t satisfactory, but I pst’d the raid leader and firmly but respectfully told him that if the other person wasn’t dealt with we’d be gone. I knew my guildies would have my back and sure enough that guy was kicked. In my guild, we expect loyalty, not so much to the individual player but to the ideal of what we’ve created as a guild. Build a family not just a bunch of people who want pixalated loot, and that loyalty and respect will come on it’s own.
Rhii January 27, 2010 at 1:59 am
I’d love to be in a guild with that philosophy some day. /jealous
Skem January 27, 2010 at 2:59 am
I totally disagree. PuG or no PuG, thier needs to be at least some loyalty or the guild won’t work.
PLUS in your example he was totally treated badly. I would have left if I had of know the details. Just becuase your online doesn’t mean you leave your morals (and more realistically how you would want to be treated) behind.
Jen January 27, 2010 at 2:46 am
I’d have left right there. I’m an understanding person, but I have a very short temper with idiots and especially *rude* idiots, so I’d even leave a group if I felt some stranger was being mistreated.
That being said, I wouldn’t *expect* anyone else to do it for me. Yes, I’d be dissapointed if they didn’t, but I would never ask them to do it (actually, I’d probably tell them to stay in the PuG if they offered to quit).
It’s not even guild loyalty, it’s not giving in to the bullies. The RL in your story was obviously wrong or not paying attention, so that wasn’t a good sign for the PuG anyway.
Lars Petersson January 27, 2010 at 6:12 am
FWIW, unless I thought the person who got kicked was a tool, I would drop the group as well.
As a healer, I’d also hope that they’d wait to find a new one (We’re like gold dust on my server)…
If you don’t show guild loyalty, what’s the point of being in a guild?
Malpeg January 27, 2010 at 7:50 am
You kick my guildie then I’m gone. I’m the guildmaster. I will be loyal to my guild. At the same time I’m not going to be upset if people don’t leave a PUG on my behalf. Most of my long-time guildmates (going on 3 years) would leave or at least ask if I cared if they stayed. The newer folks haven’t seen that kind of loyalty to a guild so my expectations are lower.
Mia January 27, 2010 at 8:14 am
I believe in some guild Loyalty. If you guys all planned on going to that PuG together, and it was stated that your guildie only had a tank spec to the raid leader, I would’ve expect my guildies to leave also. I actually would at least expect them to argue and SAY something (Why couldn’t the other ‘tanks’ switch to DPS?) The other day I was doing a horrible job doing Kitty DPS in Heroic PoS with some guildies. PuG Healer wanted to kick me but guildies said to healer “you don’t vote kick a guildie. Does the tree not realize we’re all in the same guild?” (Of course, I was on an alt so my druid was in my alt guild and didn’t have my guild’s tag. He should at least expect that we’re all from the same server) I expect guild loyalty in some way whether it’s arguing/helping in my defense to even leaving a PuG.
Cat January 27, 2010 at 9:39 am
The guild I’m in has been around for quite awhile, and has been through some dramaz and things, but the core group of people – probably about 10 or 15 of us – have stuck together through all of it. We may not agree on everything, but we discuss it and come to a compromise.
In my situation, I would, without a doubt, drop group if someone kicked or talked smack to a guildie. In a comment above, someone mentioned a Hillsbrad Foothills situation. When I first joined a guild (not the one I’m in now), I was level 30-something, and when I got ganked (and camped) in Outland for the first time, the 80s in the guild were up in arms and at my side in an instant.
It’s a sticky situation, and different for everyone. It all depends on how close you are with guildmates and whatnot.
me January 27, 2010 at 9:51 am
I would leave raid if they kicked a guildie for a bad reason, if it was a good reason I would stay (eg if my guildie was making an ass of him/herself, had no idea what was going on, was consistently afk) did a pug ToC with about 7 guildies the other day, it was 25 man and we were gearing up one of our dps who rerolled for us. He had a very low gs and was only pulling 1.7k dps, however our other dps were pulling 7-11k so we explained to the raid leader that this was the conditions for us being in the pug, and he was fine with it. Until after faction champs when he threatened to kick the low dpser, needless to say when he found out he would also be losing the top 5 dps and top 2 heals he kept our guildie.
That being said guild loyalty is obv. important to me, however I will not roll need on items to give to guildies in a pug, or try to scam non guildies out of loot. Guild loyalty is important but so is honesty.
Darthregis January 27, 2010 at 9:59 am
As my guild is mostly made up of RL friends or long-time guildmates, I stick with loyalty. And as my old army unit creed is “Loyalty Above All”, I tend to take that to heart.
What do I lose if I drop the group? A chance to roll on loot that may or may not drop. Maybe I miss out on achievement, too. OH NOES!
What do I lose if I ignore the fact a guild mate was wronged? It’s likely a bridge that I don’t want burned.
Yes, every situation and circumstances are different, but really, the best way to go is to stick with your friends or guildies.
transer January 27, 2010 at 10:59 am
I think it’s a really situational thing. Generally, yeah, guild loyalty should trump. I’d have no problem ditching a 5 man that kicked a guildie I was running with, and I’ve done it a number of times. 5 mans are a common run, it’s not a big cost to me. If it’s a PUG raid and the RL kicks a guildie for a blatantly stupid reason, I’ll probably leave then too.
However, I think there are situations where I’d stay. For instance-my guild only does 10 man content, so if I want to do any 25 man content, I have to pug it. PUGs just aren’t the same deal-things aren’t going to go as smoothly in any aspect, and there are gonna be things you don’t like about the raid. Your choice is to put up and get to do the 25 man content, or bail.
In a situation like this…I’d probably have stayed. I think the RL was a idiot for not keeping track of things, but I also think the tank was somewhat at fault, too. If you are a hybrid class that wants to raid, you really should expect to have both a heal/tank spec and a dps spec. There are too many instances of needing 4 healers on one fight and 6 on another, for instance. If that hybrid made the choice not to have the second spec set up for dps, then he/she has put themselves as a disadvantage for raiding. In this instance, I don’t think it was a blatantly stupid kick, it was the RL putting together the best PUG possible. Yeah, he should have kept the tank he invited first as a tank…but he didn’t. If this is one of my few shots at a 25 man….I’m gonna stay.
I dunno, maybe I’m selfish. I play WoW for fun, and what’s most fun for me is raiding. I joined a guild specifically to have the option of raiding. Yes, I’ve made friends there, and I try to be helpful. But I know none of these people in real life, and outside of WoW, I don’t really have much in common with them necessarily. I’ll be loyal…as long as it doesn’t cost me something that means a lot to me. I guess I’m more loyal to myself.
Dàchéng February 3, 2010 at 11:41 am
Transer, I’d definitely not want you in my guild.
@isheepthings February 3, 2010 at 6:47 pm
I dunno…I can see Transer's point. If your guild doesn't do any 25 man content…its almost everyman for himself. If the guild has issues with people not leaving pugs then perhaps the guild should focus on gettin the #'s to do 25 mans. This wasn't a guild sponsored PUG run. Had a guildie started it, then I highly doubt they'd kick a guildie to begin with.
I'd say talk to the guild leader about all this. Should you not have the #'s for 25 man content, then bring your 10 raiders and pug the rest. Then you have control over who gets kicked and who doesn't.
Mark January 27, 2010 at 11:33 am
I like this issue for two reasons. It caused me to reflect on my own guild and it brought forth strong feelings I’ve had about raid leader treatment of PUGS.
My guild appears to have about 25 active raiders and another 40 people who are occasionally participating Several I interact with daily but many I’ve never interacted with. I’m more likely to leave a PUG in this scenario if it involves someone I interact with daily.
I have seen similar treatment of players in 25 man TOC pugs in my realm. I understand the raid leaders have a tough job, but I also seen them trample over real people with real feelings.
Zugbugz January 27, 2010 at 1:54 pm
I’m the guild leader of a small F&F guild. We’ve been gaming together for years.
No question: if you don’t want one of us, you lose all of us.
The odd thing is, folks who stuff like that are usually dps.
Enjoy running without your tanks and healers!
istar January 27, 2010 at 2:11 pm
Speaking as a GM (or even as an armchair sociologist), the act of sacrifice in support of a guildie, or the guild as a group, is more likely to ensure the longevity of the guild more that a realm-first. Whether its dropping group after an unfair /kick on one of your guildies, buying that pattern at considerable personal expense that you know a few people need, or privately donating that rare drop you won that is more of an upgrade for someone else; these are things that bind people together, establishes trust, and keeps a group together in tough times. I know its a fairly clinical point to make, but its true.
Clinton January 27, 2010 at 2:16 pm
In my opinion, he shouldn’t have had to ask anyone to drop, they should have dropped out of principle. My guild is a pretty tight bunch, as tight as a bunch of wow friends can be anyway. The way I see it, if you treat my guildie wrongly its the same as doing it to me.
With that said, we have been playing wow together and raiding 10 mans for a while now. I still believe that even as a new guild, these bonds have to form sometime. I guarantee you that if all of your guildies dropped there on the spot, everyone that was present in that raid would remember your guild name, and that you guys stuck together that night. THAT alone would be more beneficial to your guild than any loot that was dropped that raid.
Dragonrose January 27, 2010 at 2:17 pm
Let me tell you a story.
Once upon a time, I joined a real life friend’s server purely to play with him and leveled my hunter to 80.
Once there, I joined a seemingly nice guild and went on an AQ40 mount/lore PUG run, where my friend was invited as a healer. Now, he’s a very good healer, located in a good raiding guild. He’s a good guy, though he’s a bit of a “know it all” and isn’t afraid to show it. Politely, of course.
Now, the raid leader, also my guild leader, wasn’t on good terms with my friend. At the time, in the raid, we were suggesting that the loot be changed to Group Loot. It was a case that a good few wanted it and the others weren’t protesting. My friend gave the guild leader a few good reasons why the loot should be group loot.
He was immediately kicked.
I’ll say, I didn’t like it. Not one bit. This guy, whom I had only met a day ago, had been presented with valid reasons and a good ammount of people wanting the chance but he stubbornly stood his place and even kicked based on people disagreeing with him.
Leave party.
Brief explanation of why.
/gquit.
Not a case of guild loyalty…but a case of friend loyalty.
Dorre February 22, 2010 at 11:50 pm
Apparently I'm part of a minority that wouldn't cast a guildie, let alone a friend, under the bus simply for the sake of pixels. Because in essence, that's what you guys did. Left out a willing and able player for the sake of pixels. This guy was left out for a moronic reason, the raid leader not being capable of reading comprehension. Yet someone gets punished for this dribbling stupidity.
Letting this guy roll on in is not complicated. It's not asking too much. It's not some boned-up attempt at a gambling analogy. It's not quelling a "fag". It's just human decency.
Rhii February 23, 2010 at 12:07 am
Hrm. Strongly worded, considering I'm only writing about an event that happened to my guildies. I wasn't the raid leader in question, and I wasn't part of the raid. I rather feel like you're jumping down my throat though for letting it happen.
In the other comments many many people pointed out that they'd have shown more solidarity for the kicked guildie than was shown him in this situation, so you're not alone. I thought it was a worthwhile question to discuss though, because I'd never ever kick a guildie from a pug, but I don't think I've ever dropped group for one either.
Sylthi March 3, 2010 at 11:43 pm
I can't read minds but I don't think Dorre was coming down on you. There was a comment a while back who said the guy who complained about being kicked and no one coming to his side was being a whiny fag. I'm about 98% sure that Dorre's comment was aimed at him.
LazerChicken February 28, 2010 at 7:57 am
I would question the raid leader about it and stick up for my guildie if it seems an unfair kick. Most often a Raid Lead doesn't want to be embarassed in front of 25 other people, so the effort will either bring back my guildie with an apology – or get myself kicked also. Serve with sugar, rather than vinegar – and things tend to work out.
Certainly if that avenue was addressed in the raid (which wasn't indicated in the original article)and the Raid lead was being obviously unfair, or fell short of good reasoning – then it is up to the guildies if they wish to leave also. Sharing a guild name doesn't impose loyalty – considering how quickly the turn-over can be, both for memberships and new startups. A guild name is just a word and a sense of prestige, it's the people (and type of people) *IN* the guild that will determine a sense of loyalty and true belonging to it.
Whippersnap April 6, 2010 at 4:21 pm
team thugs before pugs?